Episode 188: Aging Well While Mothering Adult Children Through Conflict and Change w/ Judith Smith

Judith R. Smith, Ph.D., LCSW, is a NYC based psychotherapist, professor, and researcher on women’s issues as they age.  She is a professor, Emerita, at Fordham University.  She offers support groups on-line for mothers with difficult adult children. Her book, Difficult: Mothering Challenging Adult Children through Conflict and Change, is based on a three-year research project, and brings to life the stories of fifty women, each over sixty years old, whose lives were drastically altered by becoming the default safety net for their adult “kids.” 

In this episode, Dr. Armstrong discusses with Dr. Smith the strain of dealing with issues such as serious mental health, chronic unemployment, and substance abuse disorder in one’s adult children and the prolonged impact on older mothers with adult children facing these challenges while trying to... age well.

To learn more, please visit: https://www.difficultmothering.com

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Transcript

0:05

Dr. Judith Smith's groundbreaking book, Difficult, Mothering Challenging Adult Children Through Conflict and Change, sheds light on an important, yet often overlooked, aspect of motherhood and aging well. Dr. Smith coined the term difficult adult child to describe the strain of dealing with issues such as serious mental health, chronic unemployment, and substance abuse disorder in one's adult children. The book has sparked a vital conversation about the hidden and prolonged impact on older mothers with adult children facing these challenges. This episode of the Aging Well podcast delves into these challenges, shedding light on the hidden elder abuse that can emerge in these dynamics. Whether your adult child has substance use issues. or severe mental illness, or is depressed or unemployed and not willing to look for a job. We will discuss how these issues impact your efforts to age well.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 0:57

Dr. Smith, welcome to the aging well podcast. Let's begin by having you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you became interested in issues women face as they age. And in particular, mothers with challenging adult children.

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 1:12

I'm glad to be here. I had a multifaceted way of getting involved in studying older adults. I was actually a child development researcher and spent the first 20 years of my life understanding mothers and their young babies and the structural needs of young mothers. then I got older and my son got older. And I was curious what my colleagues were writing, what gerontology, and I became a gerontologist because in social work, there was the Hartford Foundation was really encouraging people to start focusing on older adults who had been overlooked too much by academics. so, as a gerontologist, I was curious, what are my colleagues writing about older kids, you know, when they get older, and I was shocked at the dearth of information about parenting adult children. we have babies, we have school age kids, adolescents, and then they get launched, and it's as if we stop parenting. I had a colleague studying elder abuse, and she said, Judy, I need your clinical knowledge to understand, because the most likely perpetrator within families is the adult child who has serious mental illness or substance use disorder. And I was I didn't understand that. I couldn't understand adult kids attacking their parents. So I began a research project and went into senior centers I was interested in people over 60 and I went into senior centers and they let me talk to people before bingo and I said, who here is a parent? And everybody very happily raised their hands. And I said, what were the issues when your kids were young? they said, Oh, sleeping, eating. I said, how about when they were teenagers? Oh, drugs, homework. I said, how about when they were 40? And then the room got very quiet. a few people said drugs, depression, divorce. I said, okay, I'd like to talk to you. And I said, I'm going to be in the corner. if you'd like Me to learn your story. Come. I'll take your name. I didn't know if anybody would come up to me. people did, a couple of people. I went to many senior centers. I went to, uh, union retiree meetings, and I started reaching out to social workers to elder abuse centers and gradually built a sample of people and talk to them for an hour and a half, two times. And I'm a qualitative researcher. I was interested in how one's adult children impacted the women in their later life. You know, how the kids, you know, had them worried. So I didn't know what they talk about when they talk about they had married somebody out of their faith or they weren't visiting enough. You know, I didn't know what what the story would be. And it turns out the people who wanted to talk to me had adult children who had serious mental illness or substance use disorder. And many of them were back home, because if you have a serious mental illness, that includes, that's bipolar, schizophrenia, major depression, often includes psychosis, psychotic symptoms, needing hospitalization, that interferes with your ability to work. So if you can't work, you can't live independently. Same thing with a really major substance use disorder. So if it's an adult who could be 30, I've, we're talking about women over 60. So there could, kids could be 30, 40, 50, 60. I had women who were over 80 who talked to me. and so kids who can't support themselves come knocking back home. You know, can I come back? And one of the requirements to be in my sample is the child had to move out. And you'll go to college, go for a first job. So I wasn't talking to parents who knew from birth that their child would never become self sufficient and always have to live with them. most of the parents who I spoke to. thought that their kids would, with time be launched and they wouldn't be supporting them. But I discovered that for many people, that was not the case. I started interviewing primarily low income older people. And if your child comes knocking on your door, you have a relatively small house or a small apartment. So you're talking about sharing your small space with what I ended up calling a difficult adult child. someone who's not able to be self sufficient. someone who's angry, feels cheated by the world and feels like a failure. unfortunately, most kids when they're upset and angry, take it out on their moms, even when they're 45 years old. I talk to all these people. I had an initial sample of 27. I added it. I talked to 50 people all together, and then as a qualitative researcher, you analyze what everybody says to you and look at commonalities and discovered all the different ways that older moms who were 60, 70, 80 years old. We're feeling so conflicted. they wanted to take care of their kids, but they never imagined that this would be their retirement. we assume, even though many people aren't able to have their golden years, but there's some assumption that parenting will end. But when your adult child is back in the house and you yourself. Have high blood pressure. need a gallbladder operation, but have a kid who's psychotic and you're, you know, living in your living room, your sense of being a, it's a huge conflict. Who do I take care of my health needs or my child's? So it's not the aging that we're promised. And it's a very difficult situation and people are embarrassed. They don't want their neighbors to know that their kids have serious problems because in our society, many of us make the assumption if my kid is not doing well, it's because I'm a bad mom mothers feel this when they're 75 years old, they feel ashamed and, you know, if God forbid your child is really putting you a danger and you have to call the police. People are terrified that not only do you don't want your child to go to jail, but you don't want your neighbor to know that your child is putting you at risk. So it's a very complicated situation. It's not an ideal situation for older people. I'm hoping to shed a light on how practitioners and other people can help people who are in this situation in a way. Because what happens is the mom's. are moms and they don't want their kids going to jail. many practitioners say, Oh, you're enabling him. you should just kick him out. That's what everybody says. Mothers continue to be mothers. And I don't think it's pathology. I think it's what is expected of women. we have closed Nearly all the long term psychiatric hospitals, which was a good thing because they were awful. But we now do not have enough beds for people who need longer term treatment. It's very hard to get committed to a psychiatric hospital. It's very expensive to be in drug rehab. And who's going to take care of these people? It's either the streets or the moms. this is a very hard experience to be an older person, having to take care of people. yourself and having to take care of a child and there being so few services.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 9:35

And I live outside of Portland, Oregon, where, we see a significant result of, really difficult adult children, pretty much all ages, whether it's, drugs, mental illness, or whatever it might be. And it seems like the solution is always with the child on the street, but we're never focused on dealing with, the home situation because we tend to think, why don't these homeless people have a place to go? Well, we don't look at the reason why they don't have a place to go. We might say, there's the housing's too expensive. housing expense is not an issue. for somebody with mental health. I mean, of course it is because they can't work and they can't afford a place, but there are deeper issues and I really appreciate this. These are some very weighty issues. what are some recommendations for parents who are trying to cope with the challenges that their adult children are facing

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 10:30

Well, first is to find out what services, I mean, it's a two part problem. There's trying to get help for your adult child, which currently is extremely hard. for serious mental illness, one of the terrible things is it is a disease of the brain. And often your brain does not recognize that you're sick. So you don't want to take the medication because you don't think you're sick. It's like, when people get a stroke. sometimes you have a stroke and your brain doesn't recognize that your left arm doesn't move anymore. So you keep reaching. It's the same with serious mental illness. It's called anosognosia. So often, your kid's hospitalized, they're given a plan, you take this medication, you come to a therapist, and the kid doesn't go. I mean, the 45 year old kid, the 30 year old kid, she says, you know, your daughter says, I don't need this. They make me feel bad. I don't want to go and I'm not sick. it feels like your daughter's being really stubborn and end up having huge fights about the medication to really begin to understand that they may not recognize that they're ill. And so it sort of takes it out of the interpersonal realm and it becomes a whole other problem in terms of, you know, many, Parents who are advocates for changing the mental health system believe in mandated medication, if somebody can't realize that they're sick and they're on the street, there's a battle between human rights for the person with mental illness, and is it a human right to live on the street, you know, hearing horrible voices and, you know, feeling out of control. So that's part of where we are as a society, and as an individual parent. You're sort of caught in the middle, and it's very hard to know what to do. I mean, ideally, people can, if you're at the very beginning of all this, when you, the first episode of psychosis, if the young person can realize they have a mental illness and take the medication, they have a trajectory that's very different than someone who has their, first break Usually it's in the early twenties and then another one and another one. the brain really loses capacity after many psychotic episodes. it's a horrible situation. What I recommend is trying to get help from social workers in your community who work with older adults, who can begin to give you some strategies. I mean, it's also important that you keep yourself safe, that you don't want to get into huge fights with your kid, certain tiny little things, if your child does get explosive, like having a lock on your bedroom door and a safety plan so that, your neighbor down the street, if you call her up to say, I need to borrow some tomato sauce, we'll know that you're coming over there and you want to keep a suitcase. it's terrible to think that your child might become violent. this is not the case with every kid. if your child has serious mental illness and substance use disorder, and has anger issues, you might be the target. And you don't want that to happen. So you want to be sure that you know how to get out of your house and how to be safe. And you can use elder abuse social workers to help you with that. I had recruited women to be in my study from elder abuse legal centers. And they were going to an elder abuse center. But not one of them described what happened between themselves and their kid as elder abuse, or abuse. They said their kid was annoying, their kid had problems, he was disrespectful. I didn't meet one mother who, in her mind, saw her child as a perpetrator. we continue to be mothers, and love our kids, and want the best for them. but we also have to stay safe. there is a growing recognition. I don't think elder abuse was the best name that we ended up choosing as society, because many of us don't think of ourselves as elders, no matter how old we are. And we don't think of our kids as abusers. maybe it should have been, I mean, I call it difficult mothering. and I call the kids difficult adult kids, because it's difficult. you want to help them, but you're not getting any help from our larger society. I mean, the idea of rents. You know, in some, countries that have much more universal benefits, there is affordable housing for people who have, substance use disorders and mental health. And they don't have to be clean to get the subsidized housing. in our country, there's limited, affordable housing for people on substance use. but you have to obey the rules. And often people aren't getting treatment and it's hard. So where are they going to live? Except for the streets, they're going to live with mom. And if dad is in the house with mom and dad, and every parent, you say, how did they get to the streets is every parent at some point had to decide, do I evict my child? And that's a horrible decision. Um, And so, you know, I think some of the moms whose kids who I run support groups now for parents who have difficult adult kids, and some of them have had their kids be homeless, and they will sometimes. bravely engage with their neighbors who are, cursing the homeless people outside. Say, that could be my son. if you begin to realize that those people who are bothering you when you go outside is somebody else's son, is somebody else's daughter. And the more we as a society can embrace them, as a citizen, we don't like seeing homeless people. But as a mother, it's a terrible bind to try to decide, can I prioritize my life, my high blood pressure over my son being in the street where I think he might not survive because he has a, serious mental illness. So it's a terrible bind the parents are in, and they're just not being recognized as our current mental health system assumes that parents will, Take up the slack be the safety net for these vulnerable people, but it's an unfair burden and they can't do it

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 17:13

tell us about your book, Difficult Mothering, Challenging Adult Children Through Conflict Change. Is this written specifically for mothers or can fathers benefit from the book? Can it help parents with adult children who might not be labeled as difficult?

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 17:30

I know that I'm considering Working with a mom who has a child who has chronic illness since he was 10 You know, it has to have quiet no stimulation and she says they're the exact same issues You know because it's hard to get mental health treatment. People think these mothers are crazy for needing so much help. The first question is, certainly for fathers as well as mothers. Many women who've been in my groups have shared the book with their husbands and feel that there begins to be a better dialogue. I didn't interview men so I can't speak about How this all affects them, but from the mother's point of view, and some research has documented it, mothers internalize this more than I think fathers do, that a big part of being a mother is important to women's self esteem. And when our kids are not doing well and are not on track with their peers. Women feel like they have failed. every mom who I interviewed said, I must have done this wrong. It's because I was a working mother. It's because I married an abusive man. It's because I got divorced. There's an assumption that as mothers, we should be able to create perfect kids, but mental illness is really not caused by bad mothers. It's really a disease as a substance use disorder. obviously other problems in the family can exasperate what's already there as a genetic piece. it's not being a bad mom, but every mother believes that. I'm not sure if dads believe that. what the mothers tell me about their husbands is sometimes they feel like If they have a son who's not succeeding, that they feel bad. They wanted a son to reflect who they are. When I was first looking for women to talk to, there were many social workers who said there's men who are in this situation. So. If I was younger, I'd write a book about the dads.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 19:34

There's still time.

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 19:35

right.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 19:36

Remember this is a aging well, so we expect you to be able to write two, three, maybe even four more books.

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 19:42

But I think it's hard to age well when you have a difficult adult child. And what I really do in my groups and what the book does, it's mothering difficult adult children through conflict and change. And the change part is really about changing yourself. It's beginning to add in more time. To go to a gym, to go for a walk, to, think about how you want to do the holidays instead of letting them just get out of control. That you can't necessarily make your child take medication. You can't make them go into rehab. You can encourage them. but you can do little things. And there are a few books. When I first started this, there's books that say you did it. You did everything you can give up. Now's the time for you. you've done it all. They've disappointed you a hundred times. Let it go. I have not met mothers who that's where they are. I'm sure there are. one mom I interviewed moved out of state. She just couldn't tolerate, she couldn't live with her daughter because her daughter had tried to kill her. They lived in a tiny town. she'd see her daughter homeless, riding around. She found it too upsetting. So she moved. away, but found a way to keep eyes on her daughter. she knew what the food bank phone numbers were. homeless people can still get on the internet. So, moms whose kids are not living with them often track, you know, is the kid posting? And if they're not, this woman would call the local shelter, would call the food bank, say, have you seen Adrienne? Is she okay? They'd say, yeah, we saw her yesterday, she looked okay. even mothers who say, I cannot do this anymore. The ones who talk to me, obviously, I did not interview the whole universe, and they're obviously people who just cannot tolerate the pain of feeling like such a failure and facing their kids vulnerability, what I'm helping people do is, I think, age better, to say, There's two of us in this situation, and if I never get the hysterectomy I have to get, I'm not going to be able to help him, the change process is really gradually identifying things that you could do for yourself without giving up your commitment to keep your child as safe as you can.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 22:15

aging well is never easy even in a healthy situation, they end up, sacrificing a lot of their time for grandchildren and great grandchildren. one of the things we really have to emphasize on this podcast for women is, you have to take care of yourself as well as the others in your life. And, you know, mothering doesn't have to be percent of your time. You know, you, you need to take a break from it. I'm sure there are adults out there that don't suffer from mental illness, substance addiction, chronic unemployment and the other challenges that cause them to be a stressor for their parents. Some people are just a holes to be blunt. And what advice do you have for parents of such people?

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 23:02

Well, I think in some ways one has to face. Who your child is, you know, and you know, that's what I like the word about difficult. I mean, you know, sort of being if your kid is really, an a hole, to begin to say, That's who he is. and not be disappointed each time he shows up and treats you poorly if you're about to have a visit, you have to remind yourself, he's not going to come in with, a platter of food and say, it's so great to see you. Can I, anything I can fix around the house? That's not the kid you have. And the more you can take in who the kid is that you have, then you're not always so disappointed. And I think that's partially what happens in the groups that I run for moms, that sitting in a room with other people who have difficult adult kids, cause this is something no one talks about. You don't. go to a wedding of your cousin and tell your other cousin, my son's on drugs, refuses to go in rehab and just got arrested, was in jail for a year. That's not what we do. And I think. Parents who in this situation, one of the biggest dilemmas is what do you do when you go to the supermarket and you run into Susie and Susie says, Oh, how's Johnny? And you know, Johnny is in jail right now. You say, Oh, um, up and down, up and down, you know, and some people don't like to leave their house. one mom I know used to run a prestigious, day school for young girls. she knew all these parents, who knew her kids. she didn't want to leave the house because she didn't want to have to say, Jenny and Charlotte are really driving me crazy. And I think what I'm hoping is by having the word difficult, it's different than saying my daughter's a schizophrenic or my son is an addict or my, son beat up his girlfriend and he's in jail for five years. I have a difficult kid and life is not how I would like it, and somewhere to start pushing away this myth That all kids are good and every parent can do everything. And you're bad if your kid has a real issue. So it's

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 25:24

think we as neighbors too have to be a little bit more open and, you know, the right word in there? I mean, a bit more empathetic to our neighbors we don't know our neighbors anymore. And I think that's one of the big challenges in our society. I mean, I grew up in a community that we had, everybody had front porches and you know, you look at houses that are built now, there's no front porches anymore. We spend our time in the house. Are in the backyard and we just don't know our neighbors the way we should we need to get back as a society to that, you know, we're okay with somebody You know when you ask them how their kid's doing I mean, I think a lot of people are doing they say that

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 26:04

right. They think it's

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 26:05

an answer

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 26:06

right. It's, it's like saying, Oh, it's a nice day. How are you kids? For many older people, there's some real worries, whether it's grandkids or your own kids. I think maybe we should say, how are you instead of how are the kids, if you really want to know.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 26:26

Yeah, and be open to listen to people so that people can actually voice these things that they can feel comfortable enough saying you know, I know if I run into You To Judy, she's going to want to know about the kids and she's going to be willing to listen. Then you're okay with talking with that person. If you know the person that's not really caring, then, you can avoid that person. Just say, oh, yeah, you know, difficult as usual. and walk on. you don't have to engage in that or feel embarrassed by the circumstances you're in because of your

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 26:59

But the problem is this. It doesn't usually get better. So even your close friends get tired of it. I really recommend in terms of change that parents who are in this situation connect with other parents who are also in this situation. There is the National Association for Mental Illness, which offers free support groups. There is, Al Anon for parents who have kids with substance use issues that is free and is in all cities and is online. parents report enormous relief at being, and you meet someone whose situation is worse than you, so that's great. it's not only that you're not alone, but it could be worse. And you begin to learn other ways that people are handling this. I think what I do that's a little different than NAMI or Al Anon is I'm really focusing on the, not so much about the adult child, but it's really about the woman's inner experience and how much she's blaming herself and how hard it is to be a mom our society expects us to be there when our kids are in trouble. But we're also supposed to launch them. So I think the biggest conflict, and this is how my book back to the question is relevant for parents without really difficult adult kids is this is a difficult decision all the time. if your son is buying a house, Parents worry, well how much money should we give him? are we spoiling him? yes we're rich and we could buy the whole house, but is that, spoiling him? Is that enabling him? So parents are always trying to figure out the right balance wealthy people give a lot of money to their kids. But how do you balance that? how do you encourage independence and be there in need? parents need their kids and want to have a relationship. there's a whole new trend of kids go, you know, no contact, you know, cutting off from their parents, and feeling they're entitled to just say. I'm done. we're in a different, societal place about the responsibility that, adult children have to their parents. And it's can be really horrible for an older person whose kids cut off from them. Josh Coleman is a psychologist that's written a lot about estrangement, and it's unfortunately a growing trend. It's horrible when you're older and you're not able to see your grandkids and your kids will not come to visit for holidays. It's another, you know, shameful event. Um, you need to connect with other people to realize you are not the only one. It's not because you were a terrible parent. Sometimes it is because you were, a really abusive parent. And, you know, your daughter or son is doing well and they just decide, I can't take this. but there's also encouragement happening in the larger society for kids to give them permission to cut off, which I personally think, is really nice. It's catastrophic for everyone. the grandkids don't get to have a grandparent. I don't think it is a good thing, but it is happening. And if you are, kids are estranged from you right now, it's important to know that you are not alone and to connect with other people who are in that situation.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 30:19

So I'm sure the hopes of all parents are that their children will not grow up to be quote unquote difficult. Ultimately though, they don't have control over the circumstances that affect the lives of their adult children. What can parents do to prepare themselves and prepare their children for the stuff that can happen in life? So if we can go back and, you know, Okay, you're dealing with people that are already in this situation where, they have the difficult child, and now they're trying to respond to it. How can we be a bit more proactive in educating parents, future parents, in what should they be doing now to prepare potential situations where the difficulty child is? Child is difficult, whether it's within their control or without their control, you know, potential for kids to become addicted to drugs or, recognizing mental illness early, what are some of the things that you would recommend the parents to do to prepare themselves and prepare their Children for life?

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 31:23

That's a big question. I think taking your blinders off, you know, that we like to see our kids in the most positive way. particularly the teenage years when your kid is sullen or acting out, seems a little odd. It's painful as a parent to really say, is this just he's being a teenager and teenagers are weird or wild, or is there something more happening? allowing yourself to think, something might be happening here. if you get a psychiatric assessment, you get an assessment about the drugs, early intervention, particularly if the child's. is going to develop a psychotic illness can make all the difference in the world. So I think it's being able to really pay attention and to try to find the services that might help you and your daughter or son know there's an issue and to be able to get help. unfortunately, many mothers, when they initially go for help, like there's a nurse researcher who writes about, Moms who have teens who are in trouble, experimenting with marijuana, being aggressive when they go for help. Often the mothers are told, well, I think you should be in a parenting group. Instead of this kid has a problem. Help me with the problem that mothers often feel blamed. And, then don't want to go for help. our practitioners need to realize some kids have a vulnerability to drugs and the families need to be helped and not just sent to being, it's not because they're bad parents. You know, we have horrible opioids coming into the community, fentanyl, and there's some very dangerous things happening. And now, cannabis or marijuana is causing psychosis. And so if you have a history, if you know that your uncle George had bipolar, you want to let your son or daughter know, marijuana can be dangerous. It can create psychosis, you know, and now the marijuana is more potent. Kids don't know what they're getting. I mean, unfortunately how you get your kid to listen to you, but if you more be aware, um, I mean, often most of us, let's say uncle Joe had bipolar or grandma was weird, you didn't know what was wrong with her. Most of us are not very literate about mental illness, but if there's the possibility that there's a genetic vulnerability, keeping your eyes open and helping to get early intervention could really save your child's life

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 34:11

Any other advice in terms of parenting that we haven't talked about? Yeah, early,

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 34:17

Well, I think that if we're talking about mothers where there already are problems with the kids, it's not to blame yourself. To really get help for yourself, make sure you are safe, there's a 988 now nationwide. So, like, 411 is in New York, how you call the police, but 988 is for. mental health crises and they because it's a National Resource Center. If you call from Portland, Oregon, they will hook you up with resources in Portland for yourself and for your kids. So sometimes, you know, it depends who picks up the phone. If somebody is really not that helpful, call back, but it is a wonderful resource. Every, state has a state, center on aging and, you should call the state center, find out what services exist for older people in your community. find out about elder abuse services, an elder abuse social worker, even though you may not think. Your son's screaming at you and cursing at you is elder abuse. Those are the social workers who are going to be able to help you. there really are, elder abuse is now there's funding for services in every community. if you're in a rural community, it may be harder, but you will find them if you go to the largest city and reach out for help. I mean, the more you can connect with this, worst thing you can do is to And most parents who have difficult adult kids, stop talking to their families about this. Stop talking to their best friends. Stop talking to their neighbors. So you end up really isolated. And that's extremely dangerous for your mental and physical health and for your kid. So you really want to reach out. You want to connect to professionals and you want to connect to other people. Who are in a similar situation so that you can begin to think more clearly, this is a problem. It's not just that you were a bad mom or a bad dad. You have a child who is struggling and you need help on how to best stay safe. You know, have we talk about boundaries. How do you really do that? You know, if you're a mom and want to do everything good for your child, you need help and how to do this. It's very complicated and we don't have enough services for people with substances or mental illness, but there are some so the more you get connected and it's also important to know that the government provides, S. S. I. Social Security insurance so that if your child really Is unable to work, has a real substance, disorder, can't work. They are entitled to a government funding. It's not a lot of money, you know, 300 a month is you won't have to be doing that. And the amount you get from the government could maybe help them live in supportive housing. So they don't have to be in your house. So there really are services. I mean, it's hard. The first time you apply, or they have to be willing. So the kid has to be your partner in this to apply for disability. our society has some things to offer, not enough, but if you connect through 988 or through your local, senior agencies, you can get help.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 38:00

All right, let's shift gears a little bit to a question I ask all my guests and that is what are you doing personally to age well?

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 38:08

I've actually retired. I taught, I was a psychotherapist and I was teaching social work and I stopped teaching, After I finished the book part of my newfound joy is doing this work. I run support groups and having meaning in my life and feeling like I'm helping people, is really helping me age well. I'm not bored. I feel like I'm contributing. It's not 40 hours a week, but I think having a meaningful, part of my life, what if you call it work or. Meaning, I think is essential. I exercise, I have friends and I really try to maintain an active friendship life. actually there's data that shows if you, you know, obviously we know depression is helped by exercise, but if you exercise with a friend, like rather than walking helps depression, but if you walk with a friend that has more effect. friends are getting older, friends are losing their memory. you have to keep working at, expanding your own network of people. And I have cats. My, I just got pets and the, pandemic and my, I love my cats. so I think it's important to have life, that keeps giving you. whether it's my projects, my cats, friends, there needs to be input coming in to, make your life have some joy and some bounce.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 39:49

Purpose has been one of those words that has come up frequently in a lot

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 39:53

Right.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 39:55

to our pillars of health and longevity we've added not only social connectedness, but purposeful social connectedness one of the most important things that we tend to neglect as we age, and we start looking at diet, we start looking at healthcare and we start looking at exercise and doing all those things. But we forget about the importance of not only relationships because we get a very negative relationships like this whole conversation has been about. it's finding those connections that are building us up. encouraging us, leading us to growth and those types of things. so very, very important part, of aging well,

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 40:35

one piece I want to add is, people as they get older plan for the future with wills and, what's the legacy you're leaving for your kids. I think this becomes a complicated issue for parents who have vulnerable adult kids, because the whole question, one of the chapters in my book, what happens when I'm gone? you know that you will be there when your kid has a psychiatric break. But what happens when you're not there? Who is going to be there? And if you have money, somebody will give them the money on a limited basis. But it's awful to leave this world knowing that your kids are still vulnerable. And unfortunately, it's hard to replace all the work that parents do for their kids. many of the people who were 80, 85, who I interviewed, this was a very big concern. parents and mothers do work that is irreplaceable. it's scary when you get near the end of life and you know your kids are going to be vulnerable. It's very hard.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 41:42

I think that longterm planning,

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 41:44

Right.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 41:44

forming trusts. even thinking about these things potentially happening is important. setting ourselves up to, Not only age well, but then leave behind conditions for our children, difficult or not, to be able to

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 42:01

Mm hmm.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 42:01

as

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 42:02

Right.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 42:03

Well, Dr. Smith, this has been a fascinating conversation. I hope the listeners will read your book. where can they find it? How can they connect with you? do you have a webpage,

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 42:12

okay, so I do have a website. It's difficultmothering. com. So you just remember difficult and you type that in, you will find me, the book you can get on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, any online bookstore that you use. it just came out in paperback. I run support groups that are virtual. if people are in this situation and would like to work with a clinician running the groups. That's what's unique about my groups compared to NAMI. Um, and I'd love to answer questions. People can email me at Judith R. Smith at difficultmothering. com. I also have a Facebook. It's difficult mothering. So I'm trying to make this a little easy as we get old. We don't remember too many things. So if you just remember difficult and Judy Smith, you'll find me. I would love to talk to people. And I think. You know, moms write me every day. I can't believe you've written my story. So if you are in this situation, I hope you will find my book. Hopefully it'll make you feel less alone. And that's critical to realize you are not the only person in this situation. joining with other people who are, I think you can get a different perspective and hopefully be able to help yourself better and your son or daughter.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 43:34

and we will include links to all of these sites, in the episode description. So we'll make sure everybody has access to those. Well, Dr. Smith, thank you. Is there anything we've missed? Any final words for our listeners?

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 43:46

I think to be empathic to yourself and not blame yourself. it might be that you did things that you wish you hadn't done as parents. Every parent has. You might have been a little, more neglectful than other parents, but that doesn't cause serious mental illness and get help, get help for them with, there are interventions for kids who have substance use problems. There are ways to help. It's not easy. Our government has to do better to help parents in this situation. But we do have a number of services and people around to help guide you you need to take care of yourself as well as your kids.

jeff_1_08-31-2024_073637: 44:30

All right. Well, thank you for the work that you were doing and helping mothers that are in very difficult situations and helping their children, keep doing

judith-smith_1_08-31-2024_103637: 44:40

Okay, Take care.

44:46

Thank you for listening. I hope you benefited from today's podcast. Until next time, keep aging well.